engine rebuild, sell it, what to do, where to go

[jb]

I am in a bit of a dilemma as my 73.5 911 engine has started to burn oil.
Once the engine is hot whenever the engine is at idle I see smoke coming out of the exhaust.
At first I thought it was because I overfilled it.
Once I got the oil level to about 1/3 between the dipstick marks I thought it might to sort itself, however yesterday I drove a couple of hundred miles and got the oil hot enough to be using the front oil cooler and it still smokes.
It still goes really well and I have not noticed any performance drop but my conclusion is that I need an engine rebuild.
Perhaps only top end but certainly an engine out job.

I cannot take the engine out myself as I don't have the space or to be honest the skills although I did remove it with Chris Turner a couple of times a long time ago.
So I think my options are:-
1. Sell the car - not my favourite option but perhaps the most sensible.
2. Take the car to a specialist that can take the engine out, store the car, rebuild the engine and refit it.
3. Get someone to take the engine out, ferry the car back to my garage, take the engine to a specialist etc

If option 2 then it comes down to where to take it.
a. Tuthills - I have a long association with them and they are capable but they have gone very up market now and I worry about potential creative accounting.
b. Greatworth - I lot of people seem to recommend them and they are in roughly the same part of the country as Tuthills and they have in house machining facilities.
c. Mike B - I am sure he would do a great job and it would be a bonus that he is a one man band and would have personally rebuilt it, however he is 5 hours or more away from me and I don't know if he would be willing to remove and refit the engine and also store the car during the rebuild or if he would even want to.
d. Someone else?

I would be surprised if a need new barrels and pistons but certainly valve guides etc and potentially split the case and add case savers etc

I see all sorts of costs suggested for rebuilds and Gary71's rebuild gives me an idea of the cost of parts but I really have no idea what it costs to remove and refit the engine let alone rebuild it.

I know I probably need to talk to the specialists but thought it worth posting here first.

Unless someone would like to buy my car?
Not sure I want to do that as it is so much part of my life.

[PeterK]

Before you do anything
- how many miles do you drive it in a year
- how much oil does it burn per 1000 miles
- can you see the smoke in your rear view mirror when you floor the throttle & when you suddenly decelerate ?

If performance is good and you’re not driving the Exon Valdiz, I would keep my wallet closed and just enjoy the car.

[911hillclimber]

^^^ IMHO most sensible approach.

I would also let the level hot to be between low and high, could make a big difference, it did on my engines.

Years ago specialist costs:
Engine out, engine cleaned down to the crank, measured and machining as required done = 1 week
Rebuild stock engine, no fancy stuff and back in car and set up to run = 1 week

That came from Bob Watson who had done a LOT of engines then.

When I was younger, I could get my engine/box out of my 73T in a morning. Back in took 1 hour longer.

Talk to Greatworth.
Have them do a full leak down test and listen to what they say. Loud hissing in the engine breather = rings = most likely source of oil burning.
Sam there does all the engines and is very trustworthy (I have some experience of Angus and Sam), no BS just honest stuff.

Selling is not on the table, so forget all about that.

Hope this helps. Graham.

[Gary71]

^^ What they said.

Don’t sell it, that car is part of you!

[neilbardsley]

Don't sell it Jason. I have the kit for a leak down test if you want to do that. Continue to enjoy if it's going ok and put a bit of money in the bank each month for the work. Maybe the rings are no longer sealing but once an engine is dropped it isn't long before the case is opened:(

If you do need to do something Greatworth will do a great job and store it. Plus I'm sure we or Angus can get you back to a station.

Sent from my M2004J19C using Tapatalk

[gridgway]

Engine rebuild costs seem to be huge by and large. In my mind there are cost effective specialists and there are those that charge a huge price as a matter of principle!

The range I have seen seems to be £12k-£25k. WIth that scale of cost, the cost of the engine in/out is not really material as that's an easy job for those who do it.

Faced with the same dilemma - engine that seemed to work but what started as mild oil smoke, turned into a lot of smoke on the overrun. The quote to rebuild was from memory £16k+Vat from 9E.

I couldn't really live with it, nor stomach nearly £20k for a rebuild. I bought a healthy 2.4S MFI motor, sold the old motor, did the project for about £10k. Was a good outcome (once I get the MFI sorted - see my other grumpy thread!).

[911hillclimber]

A full rebuild DIY is still quite a sting.
Parts are really expensive no matter from where you go, and will be rising now even more. A year ago when I did my 3.2 I could not find any cam chains, simple stuff like that.
I would think £4K for a reasonable rebuild DIY is a good shot.

JB is not in this position, so best shop around and get good details of what is included in the deal of course.

When you say 'smoke' is that white smoke or real blue smoke, but I would re-read Peter's post first.

[jb]

Thank you all for your input
I do not know whether there is smoke when I floor it or decelerate.
It is not obvious in the mirror. It may be more obvious to those following but I doubt it.
It smells of burn oil so it is probably blue smoke.
At a guess I think there is at least a problem with the valve guides in no 1 cylinder as that plug was not clean like the others also that is where the oil feed goes into the cam cover.

Lola Graham your time estimates for Bob's rebuilds would work out at a frightening £7000 just for labour at £100 hour although they may well be in line with F2 racing Graham's costs.
I am now wondering about the option 3 of getting someone to take the engine out, storing the car and later refitting the engine after I get it rebuilt by a lesser known but capable engine builder.
In the meantime maybe I should visit a few people and certainly doing a leak down test will be good start.
I am not sure that I can do it without an air line. Maybe I am wrong Neil?
Peter's advice might be the best route for the moment and would be more feasible if I did not live in London with its traffic jams.
Anyway thank you all for guiding me away from hasty selling!

[gridgway]

I'd take it to Greatworth get Angus to do the compression and leak down tests and give you an idea of potential rebuild costs. They are in my favoured down to earth, high quality, not egregious cost list!

[Strictly]

Just to add my 2 cents.

As above if you don't do that many miles, just put it off for now, but keep the car. Sadly I have had to hang on to 911's by my fingertips for most of my life. All those cool engine High compression, twin plug, EFI/ITB rebuilds are just fantasy for me (but I am saving lol). In fact I once put 10,000 miles (ten thousand), on a gearbox in a 911 which was jumping out of 3rd gear for the entire time (and lord knows how long before and after I sold the car)!....so the long and short of it is dont worry about it until you can afford to. They are not going to self destruct!!!.

I am lucky enough to be able to do everything myself, but in your position. I would not actually take the "I am now wondering about the option 3 of getting someone to take the engine out, storing the car and later refitting the engine after I get it rebuilt by a lesser known but capable engine builder" route.

I would just let someone handle the whole thing, that way if they drop the engine (magneisum engines are brittle, I have seen cracked engine cases where they have been dropped!), or there is a problem or whatever there are no being stuck in the middle holding the baby....

With a mag engine, there is plenty of things to think about. I'm a little rusty as it has been 5 or six years ago, but i remember some things like "case sag where the barrels sit, case saves, and shuffle pinning, etc". If it is a matching number magnesium engine, then I would do everything they need such as those things. So dont cut corners. This is why I dont "prefer" the lesser known but capable engine builder route, UNLESS they know all those things. Read up on it in waynes engine rebuild book.

Anyway in the meantime, just enjoy it. It smokes, yeah so what, at least you have a 911 still.

---------------------

P.S

in proper fingertip style, I will add some final 2 cents.

So my current 911, well actually its not run in 17 years. (I have only owned for 2). And truth be told, I will need to skrimp and save for an engine rebuild....So what am I gonna do when I finally get the body done, just so I can "get it on the road" to drive? Well funny you ask, I have already figured out I can drop a VW 2.0 type 4 engine in without too much work. I have already tested it with a mates 1.6 T2, so just need to fettle.

It does help that I have a 69 push clutch gearbox spare, but none the less, I reckon all in about £1k for an "engine conversion" which will allow the 911 to grace our roads while I save for an actual engine rebuild (in the HC/EFI/ITB style we all so desire, hopefully).

So selling does not have to be an option, there are plenty of ways to keep your ship afloat while you buy time. Rest assured.

Luke

[hot66]

Jason, don’t sell unless you’ve lost the love

You’ve had this car for so long, if you can afford it, get the engine rebuilt but someone you trust . you and your car are part of DDK,history as you’ve always been there

Your still quids in compared to if you’d bought a new 911 10 years ago and worked out its depreciation

I’m a big fan of Mike Bainbridge and I’m sure he’d look after you, but yes there are plenty of builders closer to home

[911hillclimber]

Mike Campion is another to trust, based in the Cotswolds, never heard anything negative of him.

Engine leak down test first, hour labour and get it done by one who know early 911s.

[jb]

Thank you all for your support.
I really appreciate it.
Luke - that is a very good point about multiple people working on the car and it is also good to know that I am not the only one with limited finances that has some how managed to hang it all together for a long time.
Graham I will book in with Greatworth to get a leak down test done.
I just need to figure out when I can do it as it may be a case of leaving it to cool overnight before taking the plugs out as I understand taking out plugs from an aluminium head is not a good idea when they are hot.

[Mike]

Jason, sounds like you're doing the right thing by getting it checked out for a potencial top end rebuild. You and that car go together so well and I know how much it means to you, but only you know your long term plans and how the car will fit into them.

[gridgway]

There's also the debate about whether a top end rebuild is a feasible thing. Can it actually be done or does the case have to come apart to get the whole thing back together properly. Then does it solve the problem?
If it's valve guides, can a heads-only job (oo-er) do the trick? If the guides are worn (out), then are the pistons/rings/barrels worn (out)? Is there a minimal job (assuming it's guides)? Engine out, heads off, heads machined, new guides, (probably) new valves, new chains, tensioners and ramps, reassembled, engine in? Super minimalist - just the new guides in the heads, re-use the valves, chains, ramps and reassemble?