Restoring a Porsche - make it look as good new or aged??

[redrobin911]

I've been think over this idea for time now.....

Firstly I'm not a great fan of modern car restorations with them looking genuinely better than new - a visit to Essen or any of the other classic car shows and you'll see rows upon rows of immaculately resorted cars (not just Porsche 911, 356 etc) - all very lovely indeed. On the other side of the coin you'll see original cars with their original patina, where any restoration that's been done is barely noticeable and these cars look terrific (to me). Don't get me wrong, while I'm impressed with the quality of work and the attention detail and authenticity that I see in the freshly restored cars, they can look to good to drive and do seem as if they have lost all the character they once had.

My question - Can this patina be recreated and has anyone restored a 911 or any other similar car, and by that I mean to include a full re-spray and interior fit out and still managed to recreate the patina? As a keen guitarist I've seen the trend to what that industry calls "relicing" i.e. manufacturing of a new guitar but presenting it as if it were 40 or 50 years old, a relic. I've seen such instruments (Fender makes some lovely 60's re-issue Stratocasters this way) and they do look incredible and hence my question and could this be done on an old Porsche, or any car for that matter? The guitar market is exploding with not just new "relic" guitars but also a range of parts and accessories deliberately distressed to seem old. Can't quite imagine me trying to buy new chrome headlamp surrounds that are "slightly dull" in appearance with a few age related dents - perfect for your pre-IB 911 restoration!

In my initial thoughts it seems to me that the paint work would be the hard part to get right - and just not sure if it indeed could be "created" or painted to look aged? The interior while not easy to do could be done (I think?) with the skills of the right man, and chrome and other bright work should be easier to source i.e. as good used examples, while running gear etc. shouldn't pose the any problems.

Having said all this - do you think that this the right way to consider car restoration or totally mad? If anyone has thoughts, seen this done before, confirms my (in)sanity - let me know........

[Black Betty]

I think your idea is not as crazy as you might think! I love some patina also and it gives a car character.

In France cars are preferably 'dans son jus' ('in its gravy') and not (over)restored and I actually like that attitude!

My 1962 Peugeot 404 is typically such a car: always correctly maintained but shows some wear and tear here and there... I love her: she is packed with character.

Here you see a pic of the interior (original) with a time correct '62 fire extinguisher:


The doors and the rear with original Gradulux shutters:


New paintwork can be made 'old' by sanding it with a grain 1500 and then polish it to a semi gloss: looks really fantastic. Adding some period correct 'used' accessories (like an original sixties fire extinguisher or things like that) will add to the 'vintage appearance'.

[redrobin911]

I think your idea is not as crazy as you might think! I love some patina also and it gives a car character.

In France cars are preferably 'dans son jus' ('in its gravy') and not (over)restored and I actually like that attitude!

My 1962 Peugeot 404 is typically such a car: always correctly maintained but shows some wear and tear here and there... I love her: she is packed with character.

New paintwork can be made 'old' by sanding it with a grain 1500 and then polish it to a semi gloss: looks really fantastic. Adding some period correct 'used' accessories (like an original sixties fire extinguisher or things like that) will add to the 'vintage appearance'.

I'm please you think I'm not mad !!

[210bhp]

Make sure you buy original parts and not new repros where possible. Built in patina!

Richard's 2.2 S targa on here is the best restoration of paint to near original spec as you'll see. Kudos to him and the painter for going the extra mile. In a few years it will have its own patina.

Your resto ideas are to be commended. An original interior is a wonderful place to be. Immersed in over 40 years of history, wear, smell and touch makes for a great drive.
Not everyone's cup of tea but that's why we all can restore a car in a way that pleases ones own senses.





Regards
Mike

[911hillclimber]

I totally agree with this course of action, but painting it 'new' and getting all the dings, chips and scratches in is impossible.
I re-painted my 73T in 1989 in cellulose which it still wears complete with a little rust bleed, some good dings and a bit of (growing) fade + the odd touch-up brush work.
You wont spray that on.
I too marvel at the perfection of some restorations and will do at this coming Classic Car Show at the NEC, but i love the lived-in cars the best as long as the underside and essential mechanicals are ok.

Loath the 'rat-rod' look TBH.

Good luck with your chosen direction, it is your car live with it the way you are happy with.

[redrobin911]

210bhp & 911Hillclimber - I agree with what you both say - the look I'm after is "time warp" you know the sort of thing looks like it hasn't been used in the last 40 years.

Problem to my mind is getting the paint right, possibly even down to choosing the right paint process?? The relic'ed guitars I talked about use a clean lacquer over an aged/distressed painted body. So that might be an option even though I don't want it distressed - just something showing years of use. BTW I don't like the rat look on cars - but somehow doesn't bother me on US pickup? Next problem is getting the rest of the car to look the same.

If you remember Essen this year there was a 65 and 66 911 both for sale - the 66 had original paint and the seller said the car was not going to be repainted but was going to have a coat of lacquer.

I will re-read the 2.2 targa rebuild

Thx guys

[tomlin]

On the subject: a 1964 Porsche 356 C, carefully restored in Canada. Sorry if this has been posted before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-wakwqqxdc

[neilbardsley]

Have a look at Andy's 904 recreation thread. There may be some ideas for you

[redrobin911]

On the subject: a 1964 Porsche 356 C, carefully restored in Canada. Sorry if this has been posted before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-wakwqqxdc

I looked at the 356C in the video and read Richards 2.2 Targa restorations both very good in their own individual ways. I'd like to achieve the 356C look but I don't have the original panels etc so do you think it wrong to recreate this look - i.e. with stone chips and dents or is that just wrong?

[DEEMAN]

It surely comes down to what YOU want.
1. a car that behaves and looks like it has been looked after during its 60 years. But you know it hasn't and you can't sell it as such.
2. A car that is representative of the car that was 'born new' 60 years ago.
3. What you are actually able to produce at the end of the exercise.

I am attempting to restore a 1965 RHD 911. Like LYY 911D and your own car the body was bad in some areas.[*] Replacing those areas with period produced and correct panels is not easy. I took the path of destroying a 912 from the US that, to my mind, had already been destroyed -(not really true - it could have been rebuilt as a 912 but with lots and lots of work!!!)

I am working on the basis that it will look like a car that has been used over the years. The instruments will look a bit tired ( but working), the engine will look OK (completely rebuilt internally), in fact all the mechanical parts will be reworked but to original spec.

So we come to the visual appearance.

Internally I have the original seats, door cards, seat belts, parcel shelf but I have no usable carpets or headlining - they have just rotted away. To get a secondhand RHD carpet set???!!! well...... So that HAS to be repro.

Paintwork? Well I'll try my best. Very interesting to hear Black Betty's idea. Being Golfblau (and the only one imported ...[*] ) .

Now I am seriously thinking about approaching Mike about the bonnet badge. I have the original but it only has one bar of original orange. I am sure the refurb. skills are there. Aren't they Mike?? (PS don't forget the bumper and side mouldings!!).

Some of my parts have come from the far reaches of the earth. Canada, USA, Argentina, Australia, New Zealand, Germany, France, Norway, Italy and...

And that ain't cheating is it?

Don't care - the car is for me and my 'son'cessors!!

Ian

PS. Will do an 'Restoration' update soon

___________________________________________________
1965 RHD Golfblau 911
2001 3.2 Boxster

[210bhp]

Ian

Your badge can be just how you want it.

I still have the moldings for you. I cursed myself for not bringing them on the Highland tour! Sorry.
They definitely have built in patina!

Regards
Mike

[adrianc]

The dilemma between authentic original, aged, distressed or new.
This is only my view and being married I realize my view may not be the right one......
We have this problem on a regular basis. We have the skills to create as new or better than.

Remember the US auction of two 300 Gullwing mercs where the original and tatty runner made more than the properly restored car....

If the car is tidy, and functioning properly as a car...not and artifact....you can keep it and maintain it. Thats nice...its authentic...and cool.

Would your missus go to dinner in it? Yes? then leave alone and enjoy.

Then we have cars like just arrived recently, a lovely patina on an original car...but an ugly scar all down one side. Repainting one side would have left the car looking even worse. In this case...leave it? ...and for us struggle to sell.....? we did a glass out repaint, but left the rest. Thats what it needed, nothing more. Give it what it needs.

Next case is a car that 'needs' restoration (like the gullwing) although'interesting' as a relic or piece of history...your wife will wonder why the hell you bought it and refuse to ride in it.. therefore I think must be restored. I would like to use as much 'original' as possible without items compromising (to my mind) the obvious quality and attributes of the car. But its a difficult judgement. I went to essen and somehow there were a few 356 that just loked too glitzy for my taste...why I dont know.

The answer......whatever your ride, whatever you like....whatever Porsche, its there to be used, and enjoyed. If i spot signs that you have enjoyed it, used it, worn it out a bit....to me thats cool.

If you have to make it new, or any part of it new, your duty is to wear it out a little by creating your own memories. I just cannot see the artificial distressing of parts being the right thing....do it properly go on a huge road trip, visit the track, drive to Nice...

Parked in a bubble and looking like new....nice to view, in my view you are missing the point, missing out on the best bit. Buy a picture and hang that on the wall backward!

Cars, Porsche in particular, are supposed to move, to kill bugs, catch stones, burn oil, stink of hard pressed brakes, wear out the tyres, tick, creak, scream and provide us with another memory to add to our life history.

Whatever you have, however nice, get up early on a sunday morning, as the sun is rising, the birds tweeting, get in that Porsche and make a memory.

Original, restored, authentic, hot rod, just use it!

[sladey]

Nicely put Adrian.
Nothing beats real patina, because it's the residue left by miles of smiles
These cars were made to be driven - hard and often.

[jamie]

I spent a long time mulling this question since buying my 912 in California two years ago. The condition of the car sat somewhere between 'patinated' and 'a shitter', with dents, chips, mis-matched paint touch-ups to sun-faded paint and a scruffy-but-complete interior. All in all, it had the appearance of a 50-year-old car that had been used and loved. As Adrian said above, a great look on an old Porsche.

I would have happily left the car like this, but it turned out the previous owner hadn't really loved it as much as they should, and had let the inside fill with rainwater. Thus, with rotten floors and seat pans, it wasn't going to go through an MOT. In for a penny, down to bare metal it went.

So how to approach the task of resetting the clock? I'm with you on the over-restored thing - it's not a good look. This is a volume-produced device, anyhow - built on a production line by a bunch of human beings. At the same time, I'm not into the relic'ed thing either - to me, it's falsifying the grandeur that comes with age. After all, the wear and tear of patina is cool because it tells a story (drove it to Morocco via the Alps / Jimmy Page smashed it over John Mayer's head, etc). If the patina is superficial, the story is bullshit, and there's no way it can ever be cool.

Thus I decided, for my own car, I wanted to put back to how it would have looked the day it rolled out of the factory - to this, I mean fresh metal, new chrome, and painted like it has been painted by a man on a production line (not a team of paint guys who have spent 200-hours and long-blocking the thing before tucking you into bed with a £10k bill). After that, re-apply the patina by using the thing a lot. And feel OK about it.

So I guess the decision can be made thus - if you want the car to look like it could tell a story, what story would you want it to tell?

[MT]

Thus I decided, for my own car, I wanted to put back to how it would have looked the day it rolled out of the factory - to this, I mean fresh metal, new chrome, and painted like it has been painted by a man on a production line (not a team of paint guys who have spent 200-hours and long-blocking the thing before tucking you into bed with a £10k bill). After that, re-apply the patina by using the thing a lot. And feel OK about it.

So I guess the decision can be made thus - if you want the car to look like it could tell a story, what story would you want it to tell?

Perfectly put Jamie.

I grappled with this question much as Jamie describes with my 66swb (I refer to it as the Doctor's car' because its only other owner/driver was a Dr. Willard J Davies of Long Island who drove it until 1977, then fell ill/died, and the car was left untouched from then until I restored it in 2011/12 - full story here - viewtopic.php?f=28&t=33207), Anyway the car had most of its original features, a superb original red/black interior and an exterior that looked like two blokes had worked it over with battery acid for a week, then left it in a field for 10 years

In the end I went for exactly the same outcome as Jamie describes …. like the day it came out the factory, then used a bit. I did however add a few 'upgrades' for reliability - but only ones that Porsche used on later cars, and then restored and kept the original bits so the car could be made original if ever wanted that way.

Applied much the same principle to the 72E although much of its original bits were removed when it 'went racing'.

Mick