Help on OEM fron wing fitting & fettling

[deano]

Hi guys, you might have seen the start of my 25 year restoration just posted.

I need some help please ideally from those of you with lots of experience of fitting wings, or insight - I am really stuck on getting good gaps at the door ends of my new OEM front wings. I have gaps of about 9 mm on the left wing, and about 6 mm on the left, but with other issues as detailed here.

The front latch panel has been replaced, in exactly the same position as the original one, and everything at the front measures spot on as per the original dimension drawings (using laser level, with references a fixed distance down from battery box Plan Zero, and rear torsion bar Plan Zero, and centre line reference along the rubber bungs in the floor along the centre of the the tunnel).

Both wings are in the ideal position at the front end (sit well on the front bumper seal and line up well with the seal holder strip on the front latch panel and the M6 bolt holes behind the horn grilles). The gaps along the bonnet are about 3 mm both sides, depending on which of 3 bonnets I use (I can change this gap OK anyway, and haven't fitted the OEM mastic strip yet). I have laser lined along the inner wing flanges from the nose and along the cowl to the points where they bend around the windscreen, and the flanges are straight and seem to be symmetrical (measured from centre laser line out to the mounting holes on both sides). The wings are also flush (enough) with the straight sections of the cowl at the door ends, but neither fit well around the windscreen part of the cowls, and the gaps to the doors are way too big!!

Please see the pics.

Problems on left wing: the wing bolts up flush to the tub on all 13 top bolts, but the gap is about 9 mm to the top of the door (see pic). This big gap seems to be partly due to the wing being too 'high' around the windscreen, and because there is no flexibility to bend it down to close the gap like there is on the other side. In addition, the wing seems to be too 'narrow' in width, or too tight around the door inner flange. The door does seem to be about 3 mm prouder than the sill (sits out a few mm further than the sill), so perhaps there might be scope to push the door in to close the wing tip gap a little.

The left side door gap at the lock end is quite low, around 2.5 mm and about 6 mm along the bottom (to sill). The sill might be original, or was a great job. The left top door hinge has no shim, and the bottom has one shim/spacer (1.2 mm ish thick?). Not really much scope to move the door forward and definitely no scope to make it higher, I think.

Problems on right wing:

The right wing bolts up flush to the tub on the straight section (12 top bolts) only, and the gap is about 6 mm on average to the top of the door (see pic). Again, this big gap seems to be partly due to the wing being too 'high' around the windscreen, but on this side I can easily push the wing down to close the gap to about 5 mm, because this side seems to have some flex in it. It curvature of the wing down the door edge matches the curvature of the door quite well. Unfortunately, the tip of the wing steers away from the windscreen up to about 8 mm gap at the tip, and worse if the wing is pushed down to close the gap against the door.

The right door is 2 mm gap at lock end, 1-2 mm along bottom of door, recent outer sill I think, no top hinge shim and 3 bottom shims. Again, not really much scope to move the door forward but perhaps some scope to move it up at the front to close the wing gaps a bit, I think.

I know that this is a lot to digest, and my explanations might not be clear enough in places, but please dig in if you think you can help steer me!!

I really hope that someone can help me overcome this hurdle! cheers, Dean

[Barry]

Top priority is to make sure the doors are in the correct positions in all planes (back / forward / tilt / in-out). These need to be double checked with the door window frames in (make sure there're no glaring errors there.

Having the side frames in helps you confirm that the doors are sitting roughly right.

From inside of the car, assuming there are no door trims fitted, run a rule flat across the top of the sill top flange (without trim) to the door frame and mark it front and back. With the door open again, the mark should be about 6mm up from the bottom of the door, and the marks should be the same height front and rear.

Once you are certain the doors are correct, ignore the wings at the front of the car and try to get the rear of the doors in the best possible position. I usually start by holding the wing as far back as it'll go on three or four loose top bolts: hold it hard up against these, pushing from the front and nip a bolt near the front. Then lift the rear of the wing to the right height and nip there and another couple down the main flange. After that I'll just back them off a tad and lever the wing forward until it looks O.K. at the rear / around the door.

See how that looks at the front. I often end up lead-loading the front of the wings to blend nicely into the bonnet.

If the seal holders don't line up, you can manipulate the front panel in and out a bit with a club hammer and block to push the seal holder in and out a bit: not much, but you might find a mm or so.

I often end up filing the front wing hole (by the indicator, assuming long-bonnet).
Ditto the very rearmost one by the A-post / dash.

From factory the tops of the doors near the wing often had lead to close the gaps up. All doors will be different.

You can lever the base of the wings forward and back to help with the gaps lower down: be aware this changes the shape at the top of the wing at the back and lifts the base of the wing at the front, but sometimes this works out well.

Anyway: do doors, rear of wings, do what you can at the front and lead anything you can't fix.

Finally: trust nothing. Factory wings often have faults and errors, the doors might have been re-skinned etc and previous wings filled or altered to match. Nothing is sacred but think through any changes before committing to anything that's hard to reverse.

Ultimately, it's all just metal: you're the boss. It might be a Porsche, but it's still just metal. Do whatever it takes to make it look as good as possible. Don't, whatever you do, think 'these are new Porsche wings, they don't fit so I must have done something wrong.' No, odds are they are wrong, the doors are wrong and the task is to manage these things into the very best overall compromise before going in with the lead (or slitting and welding if it gets really serious).

[Gary71]

The most comprehensive and awesome answer you will ever get to this question.

Having fought new Porsche wings to the best of my ability recently I’m so glad my shell will be be caressed by Barry’s skilled hands very soon.

[911hillclimber]

Try Dansk on for size, and be ready for a challenge.

I battled Dansk front wings, re-skinned Dansk doors and Porsche rear wings, Dansk sills, inner and outer.
Of all these panels the sills were the worse, but this was many years ago, maybe they are better now?

I gave up on getting 'Barry' gaps. So many surfaces are on different radii that should match.

[Barry]

Try Dansk on for size, and be ready for a challenge.

I battled Dansk front wings, re-skinned Dansk doors and Porsche rear wings, Dansk sills, inner and outer.
Of all these panels the sills were the worse, but this was many years ago, maybe they are better now?

I gave up on getting 'Barry' gaps. So many surfaces are on different radii that should match.

You're absolutely right Graham, back then Dansk stuff was absolutely appalling. It left me so scarred I've avoided them ever since.

Certainly their screen corners are just as horrible as they always were (but a lot better than nothing), but on 8-Bit Ash's car he'd bought a front bumper and it was simply OE in all respects (in a good way) including the finish, so clearly they do good and bad.

Frankly I think you have to regard ALL panels as a starting point, but have the attitude that one way or another, they need to end up on the car. Every supplier will tell your their product is perfect and they've never heard of any issues at all. It's all rubbish: the question is to what degree each part is wrong, not whether it's wrong at all.

[Barry]

The most comprehensive and awesome answer you will ever get to this question.

Having fought new Porsche wings to the best of my ability recently I’m so glad my shell will be be caressed by Barry’s skilled hands very soon.

Aww, shucks

[911hillclimber]

I wonder in the early days, i.e. 30 or more years back Dansk bought Porsche's obsolete tools which could be past their best?
Back in the 80s we sold tons of tooling to make the door latches we made for Mini, MGB and many more to independent manufacturers for the classic car industry.

Now you are relaxing a bit Barry you can post more!

[Gary71]

The most comprehensive and awesome answer you will ever get to this question.

Having fought new Porsche wings to the best of my ability recently I’m so glad my shell will be be caressed by Barry’s skilled hands very soon.

Aww, shucks

I'm just buttering you up for the horror

[DustyM]

As Barry says just because they are Genuine Porsche panels and cost a fortune doesn’t mean they are perfect. The presses are old and if you examine the panel you’ll see it’s made up of several pressings welded together, sometimes you can even see tool marks on the inside where they have been dressed into shape. Unlike a modern panel there is a human element to production.

From experience the panels made by Herman are pretty good, but not as good as the ones Walter does, both are better than Heinz though, and if you get one made by Max on a Friday afternoon then you may as well send it back


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Barry]

As Barry says just because they are Genuine Porsche panels and cost a fortune doesn’t mean they are perfect. The presses are old and if you examine the panel you’ll see it’s made up of several pressings welded together, sometimes you can even see tool marks on the inside where they have been dressed into shape. Unlike a modern panel there is a human element to production.

From experience the panels made by Herman are pretty good, but not as good as the ones Walter does, both are better than Heinz though, and if you get one made by Max on a Friday afternoon then you may as well send it back


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, the marks are very visible: in the trade it's known as pimple filing. You use a flipper file to mark the highs on the outside of the wing, and then use the corner of the file as a hammer underneath to hit the lows up. I did hear of a £4000 genuine roof recently that had been filed so hard they'd actually nearly gone through.

[Barry]

The most comprehensive and awesome answer you will ever get to this question.

Having fought new Porsche wings to the best of my ability recently I’m so glad my shell will be be caressed by Barry’s skilled hands very soon.

Aww, shucks

I'm just buttering you up for the horror

I'm sure it'll be fine

[deano]

So, I just spent an hour preparing a reply to Barry and the system decided to make me log in again and then dumped everything.... here goes again... doh!

Many thanks for the suggestions guys, and especially Barry! I get the feeling that Barry is one of the guru's / heroes around here so I count myself lucky to have his help!

As Barry suggested, I need to position the doors first, and then I will follow his other suggestions.

I have never tried to adjust the doors, ever ever, and since I have large wing gaps at the doors and only 2 mm door gaps at the lock ends, I think I need to shift both doors forward by 2 mm ish. Unfortunately, there are no shims on the top hinges - is it time for some mallet action on the top hinge mounts? The doors are flush with the tops of the rear wings. The gaps on the door bottoms to the sills are completely different (2mm on right, 6 mm left door).

There were a couple of bits that I didnt fully understand Barry. Does the pic below shown the jist of your ruler suggestion? When you say 'base' of the wing, do you mean the parts that sit on the front bumper under the indicator light cluster?

Finally, what would you suggest to deal with the wing to windscreen surround gap (new pic below) - filler on the back of the wing flange, and maybe a bit on the inner wing above the last bolt M6 bolt hole.

You know, it might be easier Barry if I just pick you up in the Two Four Turbo and let you into the garage with a cup of tea and a French Fancy ;-P

[coomo]

I was going to comment.However, after seeing Barry had,anything I say will not be of the same level.He is far more qualified than me.
However,if it makes you feel any better.I have spent all last week.Totalling about 30 hours, trying to get nice fitment/gaps on replacement windscreen cowling and a carbon bonnet.
Wing gaps are ok but will need more work.This stuff can take a long long time.
Regarding Porsche OEM panels.As the guys have mentioned the Porsche label means not a lot.Only this week, I was reading a thread on Pelican.Guy spent $1000 on rear bumper quarters for a long hood.They were so far out, that he had to cut them insert fillets and remake brackets.
You are not alone with this issues.Spending the time is worth it though.Good luck.
I remember many years ago, trying to gap a door.After about 2 days I gave in frustrated.Called a mate, who eventually visited.He gave me a puzzled glare, Inserted a hammer handle into door gap resting on hinges.Then he shut the door a few times.Pulled out the hammer and the door closed and lined up perfectly.About 3 minutes work.

[deano]

By the time we have all finished, we'll all be experts. Unless, of course, we give the job to an existing expert. In which case, we will never learn !! I am on the verge of leaving this fettling to an expert, and wish I had a mate like that - my mates can only use a keyboard, useless t***s

All advice welcomed, please go ahead - I think we might have conversed on Pelican recently Coomo (6mm thick carbon bonnet question?)

[911hillclimber]

^^^ Saw plenty of that at Cowley before Honda moved in back in the mid 80's...

The gap of the wing, scuttle and door about where the door mirror would be fitted I found a nightmare and a lot moves when you do ALL the bolts up.

When I did battle on my 911 in the late 80's I had to re-skin my doors and that led to a unique shape of the door edge in that area.

I decided to adjust the door to meet the wings (front and rear). The rear was easy as the wing was loose and new from Porsche, the front was poor.
I ended up welding 1/8" welding wire to the skin from where the frame fits down to the very bottom where the door meets the sill/wing at the bottom of the A post.

To that I had material to file to get a good gap and then lead-loaded the lot. Filler will not hold up to all the door slams etc imho, hence lead.
All still there 31 years on.
The panels were poor, my skill set was not remotely close to 'Barry level' but had done 2 MGB's before and some others and all needed a lot to get a reasonable result.

Today the quality standard is far higher!