Early 911 car number locations

[MT]

I think I've seen a number of posts recording where people have found the car ID number other than the stamp and plate under the bonnet. There's the handwritten one on the dash top

PHOTOS DELETED _ SEE BELOW

and the one under the lower dash front trim



But I've found two more in my restoration
On both doors



and in the headlamp bowls



... admittedly only the last 3 digits but it shows they were the original ones. The doors will both be re-used but unfortunately both wings are well gone. I will keep this headlamp bowl as it's in re-useable condition if required anytime, but the other one is a goner.

This might already be common knowledge, and if so I'm sorry for wasting some of your Sunday morning ......
Mick

[Lightweight_911]

This was a 'hangover' from the 356 models (stamping the last 3 digits of the VIN on body panels) I didn't realise that any of the early 911's (& 912's ?) featured this.

[210bhp]

You will find one on the engine lid too

Regards
Mike

[pmjt]

Porsche did not manufacture the shells - they were supplied by either Rutter or Karmen, each to a commission from Zuffenhausen. Therefore when they arrived at the factory they did not bear their chassis number but solely their 'commission' number.

As an order was progressed each chassis number build sheet was married to a commission numbered shell and a car was born.

The earliest SWB cars had commission numbers identical to their chassis number. Later cars the commission number differs from the chassis number and is the main way of irrefutably identifying that a car IS the car its chassis number purports to be.

Generally therefore, these are seen as being quite sensitive and not for public disclosure But others may disagree on this..... (I'd understand if you were to remove your picture now ).

As Andy has explained, the last digits were repeated on various panels, hence enabling the identification of a car's originality or otherwise.

HTH

Philip

[MT]

Sorry Philip,

I'm obviously being a bit slow today, but what is the sensitivity? Have I just disclosed the equivalent of my bank account details to all and sundry? If so how? I've used photos before that show the commission number, and have seen others.

Mick

[210bhp]

Philips point is that some numbers are hidden. If you expose these numbers to the world someone can make a clone of your car from a rusty old shell ( ) and sell it as the real thing and it would be very difficult to spot from the real thing if all these numbers were stamped and correct. Not an issue with most cars but let's say you were trying to pass off a real RS?

It's a bit like keeping your pin number to yourself. We all know your bank details but we can't quite access your account without those last few numbers.

Regards
Mike

[Darren65]

Can anyone advise until which production year this practice continued?

Cheers,
Darren

[210bhp]

Darren

The stamps on the lower dash and the crayon numbers on the upper dash I'm sure carried through to the end of pre IB production and possibly beyond. The last three numbers of the chassis number stamped on various body parts certainly continued to model year 67 (my67S has them) but the exact cut off date I'm not sure. Someone like Alan or Nick who have seen a lot of bare shells could give a better idea. There were other number locations too (on US cars for instance) on the left hand side B post (sticker) and a plate (visible from outside) on the front windscreen pillar.

Regards
Mike

[Nick Moss]

I have never seen the crayon on the dash top of of IB cars, the build number appears on IB cars in the same place on the lower dash, and on 3.2s and up to 993s is on the rear parcel shelf as well, so on clubsport cars is clearly visible through the rear window! 3,2s also carry that number on the inner door panel.

[MT]

Sorry - clearly a 'slow day' for me, but surely the equivalent of the PIN number is the V5, which only I have - and the number stamped in the chassis on the bulkhead above the fuel tank, which only I have.

Now I know you could cut a number out of a shell and carefully weld it in another and build a car around that identity, but you'd still have to have the original number (or try and make a replica - which should be relatively easy to spot) and a V5....... so again I'm not sure how knowing the chassis number of my car is of any use to anyone. You might as well just pick a number off the list on the Early 911S Registry listing that davep has compiled.

If I'm just being dim and I've done something silly and should delete this post can someone just say so. I'm from 'up North' and I can handle (and deliver) blunt.

[pmjt]

Sorry - clearly a 'slow day' for me, but surely the equivalent of the PIN number is the V5, which only I have - and the number stamped in the chassis on the bulkhead above the fuel tank, which only I have.

The V5 holds few secrets Mick - using HPI I can enter your Reg no in and get the chassis number for very little money. With this number and with the commission number I could pass my car off with the identity of yours. As Mike points out, the worry of this is, to some degree, linked to the value of your car - if it's very valuable (an RS) then you never reveal the commission number - someone could take another (lesser valued shell), transplant the chassis and commission numbers and pass their (lower value) shell off as your (higher value) car.

In some cases the commission number has been used to verify the identity of a car - hence it's is like the PiN which as Mike notes, identifies you as being the rightful owner of your card.

In reality, it's a low risk - but I'm paranoid and won't release the commission number of my cars to anyone

If it was me? Yes, I'd delete the pictures showing your commission number - but it's up to you of course.

HTH

Philip

[210bhp]

Mick

I don't think you have done any damage. You are right to say any number could be picked and copied BUT on later cars the lower dash number is not the same as the chassis number. It is the way the factory will confirm to you if your chassis number matches the build number i.e. if your car is 'real' the two numbers match their records. They will say 'yes' or 'no' but, if no, they will not reveal the lower dash build number to you that matches your chassis number in case of fraud.

To my knowledge there are three chassis numbered #406 RS's in existence, the real one and two copies. They all have identical numbers everywhere that match. The owner of the original must have released the build number like you did. Creating an exact replica becomes easier (at least to fool an unsuspecting buyer) and the trades are now international so large sums of money can be lost/made.
The detail that forums like these go into is minute and a very accurate cloned cars can be created. What do they say, 1580 RS's were made and only 1900 remain in existence!

This recent thread from the early S registry illustrates how much detail and knowledge is needed to root out bogus cars.

http://www.early911sregistry.org/forums ... -911RS-3.0



Regards
Mike

[964RS]

I'm sure doors of at least 964RS variants are stamped so you can tell if they are original together with rear parcel shelf and dash. Think this may be same on 993RS and race variants. Not sure it was continued beyond this but obviously is something Porsche have done throughout their history....

[MT]

Well thanks for taking the trouble to explain. I will delete the photos - you can't be too careful.

Mick

[mycar]

Also, details of sharp practice in this thread over on Pelican.... can`t remember which page exactly, but it`s all there.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche- ... -read.html

Regards, Mike.