Super-secret 356 Coupe Project

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smallspeed
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Re: Super-secret 356 Coupe Project - Engine Questions!

Post by smallspeed »

so some twists and turns over the winter - I got the type 4 case from the guy in devon (via post) but it was junk so it went back
the type 4 in Northampton was junk too and not at all as described - I think the picture was taken about 10yr ago :(
I looked around at more type 4's, started playing out options and things. I just couldn't get my head around the look of a standard type-4, and the cost seemed to be 3-4x higher for everything. When you start adding the CSP upright fan conversion, etc., (which having seen it in person, looks great by the way! ) it gets pretty expensive..
I'm not 100% sure I will need it at the BHP levels I'm shooting for either, and so I kind of decided to go the more tried-and-tested route of a Type 1 engine for the build.. ..should amie want some screaming twin-plugged 2.7 911 engine further down the line she can fund it :lol:

In all seriousness though, I started thinking about BHP / Ton figures, and comparing to cars we own/have owned, and I think 125-ish BHP & LBFT will be a great starting point for this car. If I manage to squeeze another 10-15bhp from it then great :)

I ended up buying a solid t1 case from a forum member (actually via ebay, but small world) and will base the engine around that
I'm looking at a low-ish effort build (ie machined-in barrels but no massive stroker cranks requiring ridiculous CNC clearance work). I keep looking at options and started at 1904cc (90.5mm barrels x 74mm stroke) for a solid build - thick barrel walls, etc. however I've discovered thick-wall 92's and think that is the way to go, as you retain the decent wall thickness of the 90.5mm barrels but gain a little capacity..

I know you can get away with 74mm stroke without any case-clearancing work, which gets me to 1968cc with a 92mm thick wall
I think I can also go to a 76mm crank with I or H beam rods and no clearancing, which yields 2020cc
I guess the question is, is it worth doing some light clearancing (and the rods) to get to 2073cc (92 thick wall barrels x 78mm stroke)

..bearing in mind I will be doing the work (clearancing, not case machining) myself I'm not sure it matters either way, so around 2.0 - 2.1 litre capacity is the target. Right now I'm thinking 2020cc for an easy life and a bolt-together (ish) build


Re: fueling - I dug into the spares box for my spare MS2, and surprised to find there are two in there :shock: one now up for sale
The other looks fairly well suited as is for this engine, however will get a little re-configuring at some point.. I will run EDIS-4 I think rather than coil-on-plug as originally planned - it has "limp-home" built in and the marginal benefit from COP on an engine like this doesn't really outweigh that peace of mind factor :)

Currently eyeing up VFR800 throttle bodies, which look like they will pretty much drop-onto DRLA manifolds, requiring only some work to make new brackets, vac lines, fuel lines etc which is all simple :)
Based on my sums:
The size of the barrels are good for about 240bhp on two airboxes (assuming no restrictions) so plenty of head-room
The injectors are good for about 175bhp @ 3bar and 85% duty cycle - plenty for this engine which is great!
At idle they should be spot on too.. Think this will be a nice solution, and they're pretty flat too so should fit (height wise) no issues.. The only sad thing is they have a BRILLIANT method of cold start/choke which I can't really use - there's a small wax capsule which sits inside a T-shape which has coolant flowing across the bottom of it (across the top of the T) and out the bottom of the T there is a cable.. This pulls open one small throttle bypass when cold, and lets it close under spring tension when warm! very neat and economical (as always with motorbikes) but no real way of using it as-is on an air cooled engine :(
Maybe I will look into some kind of air-version of it :)
smallspeed
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Re: Super-secret 356 Coupe Project - Engine Questions!

Post by smallspeed »

on a related note :lol:
can anyone tell me anything about this car?
I'm a complete dummy when it comes to the 356, but this is just the sort of thing amie loves..
I think its an early car, but not sure whether its a pre-a or an a or what - I've always admired from afar but never really got into the detail of the different models and things
If anyone can tell me some of the detail stuff like..

chrome strip up the bonnet - is this specific to a model/variant?
that amazing wing mirror - is it a 356 item or was it robbed from the jetsons?!
the indicators and the little grills they're in - is that specific to a certain model? thinking early..
the headlights - again I think these might be early ones?

in fact overall i'm thinking this might just be an early car with lowered suspension and the bumpers off?

Anyway, any help appreciated - its literally just what amie would like, save for the red interior

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Re: Super-secret 356 Coupe Project

Post by mycar »

As you say, it's a lowered bumperless A. Someone with expertise will tell you the year but the wing mirror, bonnet handle and indicators with horn grilles are all present on my '59. If the wing badge is to be believed, it's a Carrera.
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Re: Super-secret 356 Coupe Project

Post by smallspeed »

a bumperless A it is then! :)
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Re: Super-secret 356 Coupe Project

Post by Bruce M »

Only comment regarding engine spec: edis is pretty old hat these days and although it works, if you have a problem, you need a new module & spares are not always available off the shelf. You might consider the VW 106b coil pack (not COP) which is common as muck and is logic-level triggered so doesn't require additional drivers to fire.
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KS
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Re: Super-secret 356 Coupe Project

Post by KS »

If you're going to 92 'thick wall', you might just as well go to 94s which gives you 2165cc with a 78mm crank. But if you're happy to clearance the case and use aftermarket rods anyway, go for an 82mm crank. The costs are all about the same. Oh, and buy yourself a copy of this book:

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Re: Super-secret 356 Coupe Project

Post by smallspeed »

Thanks for the info KS - I'd heard people bemoan "thin" wall barrels (almost entirely US people) so id kind of decided 90.5 or 92 thick although that kind of limits options a bit - is going to 94 fairly safe? Are there a lot of memories of 1970's thin wall cylinder failures on the net that aren't really relevant anymore?

Will find that book! :)

Bruce thanks for the info on the coil pack - like I say am going for simple and reliable so will have a read.. I like the idea of off the shelf bits too vs. say using X coil with Y fittings, and having to modify it all in some way to fit :lol:
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Re: Super-secret 356 Coupe Project

Post by KS »

94s are made from larger diameter casting so are thicker than 92s. The case and heads need machining to different dimensions than the 90.5s and 92s. Lots of cars run 94s on the street - it's a common upgrade in VW circles to run them with a stock crank to get 1911cc. A lot of early failures were down to poor quality parts, poor fuelling and ignition. Today, we still have crap fuel but with FI and modern programmable ignition, engines can live no problem. My last VW ran 94s with an 84mm crank (2332cc), 48IDA Webers and MSD 6-AL ignition and I drove it on a 650-mile round trip no problem. Did around 1000 miles in California heat when I shipped it out there, too. Use late stock cooler in conjunction with thermo-controlled auxiliary oil rad/fan set-up.
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Re: Super-secret 356 Coupe Project

Post by smallspeed »

marvellous :) gives me a lot more options
have ordered your book - will have a good read of that before I go any further!
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Re: Super-secret 356 Coupe Project

Post by Bootsy »

smallspeed wrote: have ordered your book
That's very generous, KS will get 10p and be able to eat this weekend
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Re: Super-secret 356 Coupe Project

Post by hot66 »

KS wrote:If you're going to 92 'thick wall', you might just as well go to 94s which gives you 2165cc with a 78mm crank. But if you're happy to clearance the case and use aftermarket rods anyway, go for an 82mm crank. The costs are all about the same. Oh, and buy yourself a copy of this book:

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spent many a long winter night studying that book back in teh day 8)

I ended up with a 2276 running DTA FI on my 66 cabrio
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smallspeed
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Re: Super-secret 356 Coupe Project

Post by smallspeed »

Bootsy wrote:
smallspeed wrote: have ordered your book
That's very generous, KS will get 10p and be able to eat this weekend
:lol:
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Re: Super-secret 356 Coupe Project

Post by smallspeed »

So it's been a while, and things have changed again :lol:
I have a type 1 case still, but I came across a type 4 in bits (2.0 CU Code) for a song and snapped it up.. it was really poorly advertised but listed as not working so a bit of a punt but all seems ok

I took it to bits tonight and found one of the valve guides has disintegrated at the tip and the bits have been hammered into the top of the combustion chamber and between a valve and seat. Other than this everything is present and correct - damaged valve appears to be straight so don't think it's terminal. Will look to get a new seat and guide fitted and get the combustion chambers CC'd to remove the damage and equal everything out

Plan is still EFI but either 2056 or 2276cc build with new pistons and cylinders, and probably a new crank while I'm in there.. aim is now 150bhp/150lbft with an upright fan conversion, and a remote oil cooler to get around any air flow issues

Case is in great shape but grubby - zero end float, no wear anywhere, just appears to have had a shoddy top end rebuild at some point in its past.. I'm sure it can be resurrected 8)
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Re: Super-secret 356 Coupe Project

Post by Robneal »

Have you seen this... lots of Parts on here that would make your life easy...and the cost of type 4 engines soon add up...
http://www.volkszone.com/VZi/showthread.php?t=1528009

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smallspeed
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Re: Super-secret 356 Coupe Project

Post by smallspeed »

My problem is I would still pull it to bits and rebuild it as I don't trust anyone with cars, and 1/2 of it isn't what I'm after.. £2400 (engine+shipping) buys a LOT of parts so I'd rather build it right first time, and it is just parts as I'd do (nearly) all the work myself. Alien concept these days I know :lol:

Thanks for thinking of me though - just not for me..
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