LYY 911D Restoration

[Lightweight_911]

Bill is 'Dingbat'

[210bhp]

Bill

It's a tough call, but I think this car has been considered for resurrection simply because it IS an historically important 911. Had it not been I would have been on your side of the fence but with its provenance I'm in two minds. How much of it is left at the end of the day will always leave outsiders in two minds also, original car or principally a copy?, which is the point you make.

It's not for everyone but as long as it gives the owner pleasure to restore, run, and eventually enjoy driving then it's better for him to 'save' it because the journey of restoration is a satisfying one however it is done. If the project is undertaken then it is up to us, as the principle UK group of enthusiasts, to help source parts and information to help the owner in any way we can.

Merry Christmas and all good fortune to you and the owner.

Regards
Mike

[Barry]

Hi
at the risk of being shouted down I have to ask, why bother, what is so relevant about this car that makes it worth saving not that it can be saved because if it is restored how much of it is going to be "that" car, and what about the small matter of the missing vin tags are Porsche going to issue replacements although there are certainly other routes to getting some, now I don't know how much a '67 S costs this week but I can be pretty sure that its a damn sight less than the cost of trying to put this back together, elsewhere on this site there is a '65? being rebuilt using salvaged sections from an imported 912, extreme but a fair bit is still going to be the original car, there was swampy the rotten and burn't 2.2S which looked fairly skeletal before big bad Barry had its way with it and every fitting that could be salvaged was saved and reused and it still retained its identity, Visualfix took on an amazingly awful 67'S and between the body people and his efforts to source and rebuild the missing items an S was put back together from a bunch of orphaned parts but the bones of its shell went again, and nearing completion is Ferrymans '74 Carrera, truly dreadful but retaining its original engine etc it has been pretty much reshelled but not just by building into another car but by actually building most of a new car although where practical elements of the original body were retained, but I would suggest that many SWB panels are simply not available. I know its good to push boundries and new techniques can be developed by trying to do what was previously considered to be impossible but to do this car is a bit daft, its not filling any missing gaps in Porsche development, its not of some great historical interest its mostly a money pit of the first order, a far better thing to have gone for would have been Eve that LWB development car, that would be a satisfying thing to do, it was mostly all there and had a very interesting history turned up by the chaps that found it, and I think it was a bargain when sold I thought it would go for more. I know a lot of money was spent buying this at auction but if someone I knew bought something like this I would tell them to cut there losses and bale out unless they have a mental amount of disposable income they are determined to dispose of but I guess it takes all kinds, I have a 356 cab underway of which the only original bit of metal connecting the front to the rear is the top of the "transmission" tunnel but again it still has its original bulkheads, I only wish it was me that had done most of the work, I farmed it out to a creative genius who has worked a small miracle with it, I don't want to be on the receiving end of a bunch of abuse or to upset the buyer but I don't see how this car can be restored short of finding a big pile of NOS parts or an unused RHD shell but who knows whats out there.

Well, the first thing is to strip out any financial argument: that is absolutely nobody's business. Period. We've got very used to 'our' cars being restored with a likely profit at the end. With a few exceptions, most restorations untaken by most people on most 'normal' classics come nowhere near being worth what the process has cost. However, if you factor in the learning process, research, meeting people, satisfaction and then, perhaps, ten years of depreciation-free pleasurable motoring, the sums look a little better.

As for the 'how much of the original car is there' debate is concerned, may I draw your attention to this taken from page one of this thread:

PORSCHE 911s LYY 911D INVENTORY MAY 2013
• Porsche body shell —4 wings, front & rear windows suspension hubs & brakes
• Steering rack & steering links to steering wheel
• On 4 Fuchs wheels — with one spare (5 Fuchs wheels in total)
• Full dashboard - original Blauplunkt radio, dials, steering wheel with indicators & dash switches
• Gear lever & rod with handbrake
• Front bonnet with Porsche badge
• Rear engine lid with logos
• Rear bumper with over-riders & rear link panel
• Front bumper — Carrera style fiberglass
• 1 l/h door with window/frame & handle
• 1 l/h door with separate frame & quarter light
• 1 r/h door with separate frame & quarter light
• 1 r/h door (no frame/handle etc.))
• 2 new door handles i/c keys
• 3 assorted door handles
• 1 window winder handle
• 2 front headlights & rims, spare light/lens & miscellaneous items
• 2 l/h rear lights
• 2 r/h rear lights
• 1 spare rear light (possibly 356??)
• 1 l/h & r/h interior heat vents
• 1 set of weber carbs, air filter &manifolds
• 1 engine with alternator, fan housing & fly-wheel
• Distributor & engine cowling tub
• 1 starter motor
• 1 oil tank, filter cap & pipes
• 1 gearbox with mountings
• 1 clutch plate & pressure plate
• 1 clutch arm & thrust race
• 2 drive shafts
• 2 rear dampers — red
• 1 l/h side rear window
• 1 r/h side rear window
• 2 front seats & 2 rear seats with trims
• 2 1/h door trims & 2 r/h door trims (see photo)
• L/h & r/h sun visors with brackets & screws
• 2 rear view mirrors
• 3 door mirrors
• 2 aluminium bottom door sill trims
• 2 chrome window trims
• 2 chrome door trims
• 2 door top - inside trims
• 1 rear parcel shelf trim
• 1 spare r/h/d top dashboard
• 2 exterior trims with inserts
• L/h & r/h interior wheel arch covers
• 1 l/h & 1 r/h interior door handles
• Rear interior soundproofing trim
• 1 rear top trim cover
• 10 carpet pieces & floor-side trims
• 1 bag of rubber door seals
• 2 sets of seat belts
• 3 timing chain dampers (spares)
• 1 box nut screws & seals & interior lights
• 2 carb. Short link arms & 1 carb long link arm & cable wheel
• 2 black dampers (spares)
• 2 windscreen wipers
• 2 spare front brake discs & hubs
• 3 hood & boot lid struts
• 1 bonnet hinge unit
• 1 bonnet lock receiver
• 1 silencer
• 1 l/h & 1 r/h exhaust pipe set
• 1 engine lid lock receiver
• Fuel tank & filler pipes
• Electric fuel pump, ht coil & sundries — fitted in engine compartment
• Fuel filler cap (spare)
• 1 set of foot pedals
• Assorted windscreen drain sets
• Assorted Rubber gaitors

Well, that's there's a hell of a lot more orginal (assuming the above is, which on the whole is highly likely) car there than a lot of classics running about. Surely the heart of the orginal car is the engine and gearbox? As has been said already, there are many 'orginal' cars running around out there with little more than a front bulkhead and a vin plate.

As for the bodywork, well I'm sure there's a plan in place to ensure that none of the original goes to waste.

Interesting debate though, and great project .

[Darren65]

However, if you factor in the learning process, research, meeting people, satisfaction and then, perhaps, ten years of depreciation-free pleasurable motoring, the sums look a little better

….most definitely the best bit, even without the depreciation factor

There would have been more of an argument for scrapping the Mongrel Barry's just finishing based on a vehicles significance and originality…….this one is far too important to bin.

[freshprince]

Hi
at the risk of being shouted down I have to ask, why bother, what is so relevant about this car that makes it worth saving not that it can be saved because if it is restored how much of it is going to be "that" car, and what about the small matter of the missing vin tags are Porsche going to issue replacements although there are certainly other routes to getting some, now I don't know how much a '67 S costs this week but I can be pretty sure that its a damn sight less than the cost of trying to put this back together, elsewhere on this site there is a '65? being rebuilt using salvaged sections from an imported 912, extreme but a fair bit is still going to be the original car, there was swampy the rotten and burn't 2.2S which looked fairly skeletal before big bad Barry had its way with it and every fitting that could be salvaged was saved and reused and it still retained its identity, Visualfix took on an amazingly awful 67'S and between the body people and his efforts to source and rebuild the missing items an S was put back together from a bunch of orphaned parts but the bones of its shell went again, and nearing completion is Ferrymans '74 Carrera, truly dreadful but retaining its original engine etc it has been pretty much reshelled but not just by building into another car but by actually building most of a new car although where practical elements of the original body were retained, but I would suggest that many SWB panels are simply not available. I know its good to push boundries and new techniques can be developed by trying to do what was previously considered to be impossible but to do this car is a bit daft, its not filling any missing gaps in Porsche development, its not of some great historical interest its mostly a money pit of the first order, a far better thing to have gone for would have been Eve that LWB development car, that would be a satisfying thing to do, it was mostly all there and had a very interesting history turned up by the chaps that found it, and I think it was a bargain when sold I thought it would go for more. I know a lot of money was spent buying this at auction but if someone I knew bought something like this I would tell them to cut there losses and bale out unless they have a mental amount of disposable income they are determined to dispose of but I guess it takes all kinds, I have a 356 cab underway of which the only original bit of metal connecting the front to the rear is the top of the "transmission" tunnel but again it still has its original bulkheads, I only wish it was me that had done most of the work, I farmed it out to a creative genius who has worked a small miracle with it, I don't want to be on the receiving end of a bunch of abuse or to upset the buyer but I don't see how this car can be restored short of finding a big pile of NOS parts or an unused RHD shell but who knows whats out there.

[spillers]

Emerging from a Christmas of floods and power cuts at my daughters I have only now got the time to read and respond.

I understand and in many ways agree with Andy's and Bill's viewpoint, advocating "cut there losses and bale out" and I guess then break up the parts and sell piecemeal? I know this project isn't to everybodies liking but this caught my imagination and I am going ahead with the project regardless. Going forward I will project manage as much as I can to manage costs.

So if we can draw a line under the above debate and start looking at next steps I think that would be constructive.

Clearly I will need to use a donor car and just before Christmas I acquired a SWB RHD 911 rolling shell. Thanks to a pointer from a DDK'er to this shell for sale on eBay!!!. It is a very sad and sorry state so I don't feel too bad about using that as the source of key RHD metalwork to integrate with as much as I can save from LYY 911D. I will post photos later.

In the meantime I want to understand as much about the history as I can. The rear offside wing on LYY 911D is a later add on. How did that happen? Who put the (horrible!) sun roof in and when?

Derrick Insley is the chap who has the green log book and sent me the scan of it (above)

He purchased the car in 1975 from Gordon Lamb Ltd (Volkswagen), Chesterfield. It is only a poor scan of the logbook which is difficult to read but what I can discern from the scan.

The initial owner is clearly registered as PCGB Falcon Works on the 12th August 1966

Then the first change is also clear, AFN Falcon Works. 28th July 1967

Followed by the second change which is very difficult to read:
Fron Purslow, Abbey Foregate, Shrewsbury, which would be in Shropshire. 5th April 1971

and finally for the third change it was registered to what looks like:
John Kingsley Miln of The Croft, Old Brampton, Chesterfield. 7th June 1973

It seems he owned it for 2 years before selling it on via Gordon Lamb to Derrick

Derrick then owned the car from 1975 till 1976 leaving me with the questions "who did Derrick sell the car to?" and "who owned it between 1976 and 1979?" and "who started the renovation in 1979?"

It seems Derrick is having email problems (BT seem to have switched from the Yahoo mail engine which is causing problems) so if you read this Derrick please send me a message via DDK

Can anyone help me contact any of the previous owners?

[squirejo]

Bravo spillers. There were plenty who thought Alan and Barry quite mad for saving my car, which while an interesting somewhat rare model has no other cache. Everyone rather likes it now, however! Good luck with this project. I am sure ddk will guide you to many successes like the shell along the way.

[Barwaut]

OK, complete bodywork, and then what to do with the chassis number?
As far as I can see, it's rusted away on the original shell.

So, in the end there will be stamped something, this thread will live forever on the interweb (cached by several sources)

The car will be very hard to sell....

[Gary71]

The car will be very hard to sell....

Conversely I'd much rather see a fully documented rebuild/recreation than something completely unknown.

Good luck to Spillers with the rebuild!

[911hillclimber]

I do hope the 'work' can get going soon!

My 73T had one of those typical 80's flat glass tilt only sunroofs, and when i got it out the whole roof panel was distorted'flat' locally.

In the end I cut a much larger hole in the roof and fitted a shortened new MGB Webasto cloth sun roof
Which is a treat.

My 73T is worthless in comparison to this car, but cut the distortion out and weld another roof panel in or simply using the donor shell cut parts out and let the original car here parts (that are salvaged) into place?

I would use the donor car as the foundation not the other way round.

[Darren65]

John,

You can put a request in to the DVLA asking for details of previous owners using form V888 which will only cost you as fiver…I think it's available online.

HTH

[Lightweight_911]

Here you go:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... -a-vehicle

[Superlight7]

I used the V888 service earlier this year for my 72....I was pleased with what came back and have to say was well worth the nominal £5 cost.

Officially you DO need to agree to data protection act which from my understanding means you are unable to use the data they supply. In other words I've taken this to mean I'm unable to contact those previous owners that I learnt about via DVLA.

Therefore I exhausted word of mouth searches before calling upon DVLA and have only reached out to those word of mouth contact, who have all been most helpful....a number of course have been here on DDK

[IanMcLeod]

OK, complete bodywork, and then what to do with the chassis number?
As far as I can see, it's rusted away on the original shell.

So, in the end there will be stamped something, this thread will live forever on the interweb (cached by several sources)

The car will be very hard to sell....

Not sure why that would be the case. Everyone knows what the car is and its history. This car has providence that is clear and stacks up. It has the chassis number stamped on the kneepad under the dash, it has the engine with the right number, it has the identifying number stamped on the body panels. It has well documented Porsche Cars history, etc etc.

The missing chassis number on the bulkhead is a small part of the whole picture. It would not put me off buying the car.

The skill will be in restoring the existing chassis, retaining as much as possible in a clear way. Like how the Italians restore their historic buildings. They don't try to hide the difference between what is original and what is new and there is no reason this car will not make a great restoration.

I applaud the new owner for taking the car on.

Ian.

[Barwaut]

It would not put me off buying the car.

And when there's a similar car (with a correct VIN) on the lot? which one would you take?