New MOT legislation and more...

[Bootsy]

Wouldn't it be wonderful if the 8 point definition was updated - a sensible approach would be to update the 8 point rules to allow modifications which effectively strengthen the chassis or doesn't affect it's strength. The same could apply to monocoque cars. You can but dream

[gridgway]

So (back in "but surely" mode), having another read of the 3 papers, they are all about mot exemption. There is no mention of what happens if your car doesn't qualify, just that it has to have an annual mot.

Where are the references/docs that describe the other consequences? No longer a VHI and subject to iva?

Graham

Just received the results of the government discussion paper of Vehicles of Historic Interest (VHI), the points raised due for implementation in April 2018.

To summarise: Vehicles over 40 years old to be exempt from MOT unless they are 'substantially altered' with in the 8-point DVLA ruling or have the power-to-weight ratio increased by more than 15 per cent over original, in which case they will no longer be deemed a VHI. In the case of the power to weight ratio, if the modifications can be proved to have been implemented before 1988, then nothing changes. If you've built a hot-rod Porsche based on an early car since 1988, then you'll lose the rights to Historic status it would appear.

If you have a few minutes (hours) to spend, here are the papers as released today:

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultat ... c-interest

[Bootsy]

So (back in "but surely" mode), having another read of the 3 papers, they are all about mot exemption. There is no mention of what happens if your car doesn't qualify, just that it has to have an annual mot.

Where are the references/docs that describe the other consequences? No longer a VHI and subject to iva?

Graham

It's the new process of having to self certify (every year when taxing the car) and declare that a car is 'substantially changed' that opens up a number of avenues for the agencies involved to persue

[gridgway]

So that's existing legislation then? Which bits? I know KS is referring to the hot rod scene, but I'm a sheltered kind of guy and don't know anything of what's going on and how and why!

Graham

[Bootsy]

So that's existing legislation then? Which bits? I know KS is referring to the hot rod scene, but I'm a sheltered kind of guy and don't know anything of what's going on and how and why!

Graham

Yes existing

It now means that suddenly the agencies are now aware that a car is substantially modified (by the owners own admission) where before they were under the radar. They could request inspections on these cars many of which haven't been built to the 8 point legislation (which has been in place since 1988) - many will be of course. So BIVA / IVA, Q Plates etc.

[gridgway]

So if I build an RS lookalike today by taking a 72 E, welding RS flares on it, putting a duck tail on and changing the front and rear bumpers, what is the correct thing to do?
IVA it?
Graham

[Bootsy]

Officially yes as you're going to modify the monocoque - in practice I'm guessing nobody ever has and there lies the problem

[904GTS]

None of our Porsches have a monocoque body, but a unitary or unibody construction, by definition a monocoque relies on the outer skin for its strength with usually light stiffeners to prevent buckling, eg an aircraft fuselage.

This from Wikipedia :-

"Commercial car bodies are never monocoques but instead most cars use a method called variously unibody/unitary construction/unitary body/chassis or body frame integral construction,[15] which uses box sections, bulkheads and tubes providing most of the strength of the vehicle, while the skin adds relatively little strength or stiffness. The term monocoque is frequently misused when referring to unibody cars.[16] "

Therefore it can be reasonably argued that modified wings are not a substantial modification as they do not affect the structural integrity of the unibody shell.

Modifications to box sections, crossmembers, and bulkheads which together form the unibody construction would constitute a change to the original structure.

[911hillclimber]

Taking the guidelines/rules of the point system literally, then when we are asked if the car's body is modified then we face the dilemma of is it actually modified enough to matter.

Thus the car owner has to decide (if they know) if the car's shell is modified.
Many will have bought modified car not knowing it, so will declare when taxing the car that it is standard and will unknowingly be lying.


In my case, if someone bought my lhd/rdh converted car 10 years ago and I had not told them, and they knew little about 911 shells they would think the car is rhd, and so not declare it is modified.
I have defined this change to insurance since I did it, I had to prove to nobody I did it well or poorly, that's how it was back 23 years ago.
So, today I have to declare it is modified significantly and automatically loose the historical status (tax) have an MoT every year (not a problem) but submit to the biva at minimum, pay £450 and get a Q plate for ever.
I will take my bolt-in cage out for the biva. Shell has been modified in just one place then, keeps it simple.

As to the fact that there are few testing stations, so very true, but you will simply join the queue and wait clutching your £450 cheque in one hand, a prayer in the other.
Happy days for VOSA!
You will wait because you have no other choice, simple and no pressure on the authorities, you waiting is no skin off their noses.

Sense would be the MoT tester inspects the car, decides on the mod severity and guides the owner accordingly, no further action, bigger engine, MoT for ever (he is happy) or BIVA, and a very angry customer (ugly) who will boycott his garage for ever (MoT man unhappy).

What a mess, just because England just has to conform at the drop of a hat to anyone in the EU.

Finally, if you fail to declare a mod and have a serious crash you will find yourself in-insured and more. Ignorance is no excuse, but I wager many would not know that their nice white Morry Minor traveller with Sprite disc brakes and engine is in fact a points loosing insurance busting modified car. (even though it is safer)

[Bootsy]

None of our Porsches have a monocoque body, but a unitary or unibody construction, by definition a monocoque relies on the outer skin for its strength with usually light stiffeners to prevent buckling, eg an aircraft fuselage.

This from Wikipedia :-

"Commercial car bodies are never monocoques but instead most cars use a method called variously unibody/unitary construction/unitary body/chassis or body frame integral construction,[15] which uses box sections, bulkheads and tubes providing most of the strength of the vehicle, while the skin adds relatively little strength or stiffness. The term monocoque is frequently misused when referring to unibody cars.[16] "

Therefore it can be reasonably argued that modified wings are not a substantial modification as they do not affect the structural integrity of the unibody shell.

Modifications to box sections, crossmembers, and bulkheads which together form the unibody construction would constitute a change to the original structure.

That would change things for many

[gridgway]

I think we should stop the hysteria and jump back to reality.
1 the new rules determine whether you get mot-free status.
2 if you declare your car is modified you don't get mot-free status.
3 if you declare mods, we have no idea what the government/DVLA/HMRC/Sith are going to do with that info. As far as I can see it's pure speculation.

Graham

[Bootsy]

I think we should stop the hysteria and jump back to reality.
1 the new rules determine whether you get mot-free status.
2 if you declare your car is modified you don't get mot-free status.
3 if you declare mods, we have no idea what the government/DVLA/HMRC/Sith are going to do with that info. As far as I can see it's pure speculation.

Graham

Very true

[911hillclimber]

Way back, maybe the first page, KS gave an email address you can use to pass your thought on about this situation.
I sent them a short email on Sunday.
No response yet.

I have built 2 USA style hot roads in the 70's. The first has everything that would violate the 8 point system, but this was in the 70's, anything went.
I modified my 911 particularly hard in the early 90's trying to make it faster and safer to hill climb/road car.
I had absolutely no idea about the '1988 IVA 8 point system' and at the DVLA nobody questioned the engine change from 2.4/180 bhp to 3.2/220bhp.

Over the post '88 year so many classics have been modified for various reasons and if the current owners know of the changes have to declare them when you apply for tax after (I think) May 2018.
Pre '88 and you can ignore the mods made IF you can prove they were made pre 88!

Declaring any changes when asked on the tax application on line or in a Post Office is the crunch. That is when all this will hit, when it all actually affects people, your car is in a queue and it has lost 50% of its value as it is a poxy Q plate not a cute 1963 A plate.

From now until then, nobody will buy your modified car unless it is really cheap!

[911hillclimber]

For me it is clear, 5 points of the 8 must come from the shell.
If it is modified significantly, and you declare it, then you will be sent to biva/IVA and if you pass you will have to have a Q plate.
If you fail and cannot get a pass the car cannot be used on the road. The basic IVA is no joke, the full IVA would be really hard to pass without extensive changes to the interior.

If your engine swap is more than a 15% hike in power to weight then MoT etc.
The shell issue is the real problem.

[gridgway]

Graham you are conflating things.
You are making the connection of what happens if you don't get mot free status to what might or might not happen. You can't possibly know.
My view is the opposite. Come car tax day I'll say yes it's modded. Not get the mot exemption and that's it. Nothing else will happen. Yes I'm speculating too, but to me that feels more likely than mass rejection of licences and longt queues at the iva station!
Graham

For me it is clear, 5 points of the 8 must come from the shell.
If it is modified significantly, and you declare it, then you will be sent to biva/IVA and if you pass you will have to have a Q plate.

If your engine swap is more than a 15% hike in power to weight then MoT etc.
The shell issue is the real problem.